• PRO

    Plus everyone likes it for a different reason if they...

    Modern art.

    "during around the renaissance period, Each artist sought the highest quality attainable and they improved on the previous generation of masters. Nowadays art seems to be only about making a statement, Which in tern leads to bad art. Art standards are not objective. " Okay, So I don't want to be obtuse and act like I don't understand your point. I'm a musician, So I too have snobbishly rejected music that was overly simplistic or what you would call "trashy" The thing about art is it's not just one thing. So I would say that while it's okay to have a standard, Which judgements made of this standard COULD be objective even if the standard itself is subjective, We should also acknowledge that sending a message is okay too. It really depends on the message. I would say that if the art made is coherent and not just random lines, Then it should be respected. That is the bare standard that i could accept. "The golden ratio is a great example of transcendant beauty. I don't know a single person who does not find flowers beautiful. " This is the argument from ignorance fallacy, AKA the pesonal incredulity fallacy. You're basically saying that you can't imagine how somebody can't find the golden ratio beautiful, But it's stilll subjective. Plus everyone likes it for a different reason if they like it at all. I don't find flowers partiularly beautiful (Yeah, I know, I'm a monster) but I find the ratio itself beautiful becase I love math. Also, Doesn't the golden ratio have a more popular name? Just a side note. I had a friend into metaphysics who use to talk about it all the time and how it shows up everywhere. Nature is fun. I want to adress the comment you made about the David being a really expensive hunk of stone. You say beauty is transcendant, But millions of people have found beauty in the david and you haven't. Doesn't that hurt your case? If beauty is transcendant, Then it should be universally agreed upon, But nobody can agree with anything, Hence why this website exist. Lol. I'm sure you're famiar with warhal's campbell soup painting. I found it to be stupid, But peole liked it. It's all subjective and we should respect people's opinions instead of saying they're being "trashy" or not artistic. Your floor :)

    • https://www.debate.org/debates/Modern-art./1/
  • PRO

    No, because each time you see the painting, you are a...

    Bioshock is a work of art

    1) Con states: "Museums also combine mediums of many different art forms, because of this should we call museums art? No." Actually, putting together a gallery in a museum is considered a form of art, known as curating. Also, notice film combines image, text, and sound; it combines different art forms in one. Video games do the same thing. There is nothing about combining different artistic mediums that suddenly makes the end-combination non-artistic. On the contrary, combination of artistic mediums can itself be an artistic technique and form of artistic expression. 2) Whether you rescue the Little Sisters or harvest them, the game evokes emotion in the player in the same way a film evokes emotion from viewers and a poem evokes emotion from readers. 3) Con states that, once someone interacts with art, they do not receive the "maker's emotions." According to Con, "Once you actively change the art, it then stops being art." First: many works of art have been changed to create new works of art. There is no reason to assume art would stop being art simply because we change it. Second: what reason is there to believe "interacting" with art somehow makes it not art? Consider: When I see a film, I interact with it by bringing my own personal views and history, and combining my personal identity with the film's identity. There is a structure to the experience of ALL art: a creator, the artwork itself, and the person who experiences the art. For any artwork to be experienced, it requires all three of those structures. Think about it this way: When you go to a museum and see a Picasso painting, do you have the same experience the 2nd and 3rd time you see the same Picasso painting? No, because each time you see the painting, you are a different person. Each painting affects each person differently because each person's history, identity, mood, and overall well-being influences the way the artwork affects people. The point is: the way each individual interacts with the artwork is different, and that way of interacting determines the experience of the artwork. But that doesn't mean the art itself "stop beings art." Con's claims are completely unsubstantiated. 4) When Con states -- "if he has to make choices and has options that affect the result, then it is not linear any longer. If a game is nonlinear, then it gives the audience options and these options then affect the result of the game, then it is no longer art" -- Con completely misrepresents what I stated in R2 and misunderstands what makes art art. I was arguing that the player's "choices" and "options" were an illusion. BioShock thematizes the player's desire for freedom by creating the feeling and emotion that player's have made decisions for themselves. But in the key twist in the narrative, the player realizes that every single action, choice, and decision they have made was actually chosen for them. At the key moment, when Ryan utters the words, "would you kindly," he commands the player to kill him. The game takes away control of the player-character from the player, and the player watches as he kills Ryan without wanting to. The player realizes everything he has done up till that point was commanded by Atlas. But the game doesn't stop there. It choreographs a narrative turn, where the player is freed from following commands, but the player is now brutally aware of the fact that this is a linear game. The player now knows that any illusion of choice and freedom in the game is just that, an illusion. Hence, the game plays off the player's desire for freedom, and uses that tension to force the player to reflect on free will, freedom, determinism, linearity and non-linearity. Now, Con thinks that non-linear things cannot be art. Why not? There are a large number of non-linear artworks, including many films and poems. Anything written by the so-called LANGUAGE poets in the 80s and 90s is completely non-linear, and the non-linear post-modern novels of writers like David Foster Wallace. Or take the films of Godard and Tarantino, which are often non-linear. Or take a look at some of the great contemporary "time-artists," who create art that thematizes non-linearity in time. Or finally, the photography of Andreas Gursky, which is often considered non-linear. Clearly, art can be non-linear. 5) In closing, I bring readers attention to Con's final statement in R3: "I realize my first argument was quite weak." Con concedes that his argument in R2 was weak, and therefore, Con completely abandons it in R3. So, I clearly won R2. Now, in R3, my opponent again gives a very weak argument, as I have shown in this round by systematically addressing each of Con's points. BioShock is a work of art. Nothing Con has claimed challenges that fact. The resolution is affirmed.

  • CON

    Art in deifinition in my means is the picture of...

    Video Games Are An Art Form

    Art in deifinition in my means is the picture of imagination and also by skill like a sculpture etc. I oppose your claims because video games are more social than art and for video gamers like you is art. People who plays these games might call them pixel virtual images or pixelations. So for u (the pro) might think they are art in your eyes anime people and cool scenes and images it's not i'm very sorry to say. Pixelations is classified differently than art it's more computer than by actual physical skill.In my oppinion killing and blood all over the place is not the type of art and lovely beautiful animes are just making the storyline of the game interesting and also can have more sales.

  • CON

    pictures that is painted by painters openly shows the...

    Art is essential to life.

    "Art is essential to life becouse we almost can not imagine the world without art." Can you provide evidence to support this claim. "Art makes the world the real world." This claim is absolutely ridiculous. "Besides, every native person is known with its arts that comes from their own ancestors such as painting is most striking example." The ability for art to convey the lifestyle of our ancestors does not make it essential. "pictures that is painted by painters openly shows the life of our ancestors or also through the painting we can relax as we are listening the music or even more." This does not make art essential to life. "so, anyway the art is essential life of our world." You have given no evidence to support this.

  • CON

    and point out that this definition would lead to...

    Video Games are a form of art.

    Thanks to Pro for posting what has, in recent years, been a topic of some controversy. Firstly, it would be easy for Con to win just by taking Pro's first two sentences "Video games are a form of art because they are created. anything that is created is a form of art." and point out that this definition would lead to absurdity; if anything that were created fell under the definition of art, then not only books or painting but also suitcases, bicycles, plastic cups and literally everything manufactured in some way would count as "art", voiding the word of any usefulness. However, I will take a more charitable interpretation and assume that what he means by art includes the act of "enjoying and interacting" with the creation and also that "beauty" comes into it. Now, given this definition, it is clear upon reflection that such a broad statement as "Video Games are a form of art" is simply not true; some video games are art, certainly; perhaps a majority, perhaps a minority, but a great many are not. Firstly, it is only relatively recently that games have become visually what anyone would consider to be beautiful. For example, to take a random example, outdated games like this one would not be considered beautiful [1] by any standard measure of the term. In addition, some games are poorly designed and thus not enyoyable to play. For instance, Superman for the nintendo 64 was released with a multiplicity of bugs and most of the game was filled with mind numbingly boring ring flying challenges [2]. I don't have a precise definition of "Art" - there is no uncontested definition. However, by the definition Pro has posted, the resolution is false. Some video games are art, some are not; however, all video games are not art. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org... [2] http://uk.gamespot.com...

  • PRO

    Art is essentially the physical expression of ANY concept...

    Art has many purposes

    Art is essentially the physical expression of ANY concept or idea- be it beauty, death etc. Some of the most powerful works of art would not be considered beautiful- for example the work of Francis Bacon- but are held in high regard because of the ability of the artist to convey a sense of something. While many works of art convey a sense of beauty, it is certainly not the only purpose of art as a whole.

  • PRO

    Besides, every native person is known with its arts that...

    Art is essential to life.

    Art is essential to life becouse we almost can not imagine the world without art. Art makes the world the real world . Besides, every native person is known with its arts that comes from their own ancestors such as painting is most striking example.pictures that is painted by painters openly shows the life of our ancestors or also through the painting we can relax as we are listening the music or even more. so, anyway the art is essential life of our world.

  • PRO

    In the Odyssey, the goal was to get Odysseus home. ......

    Video Games are an art form.

    You have some interesting points, thank you for posting. First, I would like to refute the arguments that you gave. A:Video games have goals All forms of art have goals, the only difference is that it is up to the player whether or not these goals are reached. In the Odyssey, the goal was to get Odysseus home. In Titanic, the goal was for Jack and Rose to survive the sinking. In all other art forms, it is up to the creator whether or not these goals are obtained, but the goals are still there. B:Deliberation What about cinema and photography? The first movie was not accidentally shot, then shown in movie theaters. The first photograph was taken deliberately. Yet both of these are considered art forms in today's society. Photography can be taken randomly, but the odds that it is admired among many people is highly unlikely. C:Creators of art Cinema and Drama both take many participants to make a masterpiece. Video games can be created by one man, but more than likely, it will suck. The same is true with Cinema and Drama. I think that the interaction of the gamers make it even closer to an art form. The creator must choose how the player interacts with the game, and this could make or break a game from becoming a masterpiece. It's just like an artist choosing the perspective angle of his drawing. Most forms of art also leave somethings up to the audience to determine. An example of this would be Ernest Hemingway's The Old Man and The Sea. It is up to the reader to determine if his final trip was a success or a failure. It depends on who you are on how the story ends. I also believe the goals you mentioned are also important to the art form. These goals determine how difficult the game is, and therefore determines that type of player that will enjoy the game the most. All forms of art have the same aspects. It depends on how funny a movie is to determine the type of people who will enjoy it. It depends on the detail of the painting to determine it's audience. It depends on the wording of a novel to determine if a kid is going to read it. These goals also could pertain to the story, making them all the more essential. I am also a lover of video games, and I realize their potential. If you have ever played Bioshock, it would be apparent that video games have the potential to have just as great artistic values as any other art form. People claim that most video games do not share these artistic values, but then I would like to point out that all art forms have it's crap. Cinema: Epic Movie, Twilight, and Santa Claus Conquers the Martians. Literature: Twilight. Music: rap. No art genre is perfect, and video games are no exception. But they are the newest of art forms, so we need to give it some time to evolve.